Published on October 23, 2001 By gorman In WinCustomize Talk
Over the past few days I've heard some remarks and seen some actions taken which have deeply worried me. Over these days I have seen the community which I care so much about damaged greatly due to fighting and anger within it. From this, I have seen emotions pouring out from every side of every disagreement, every message board thread, and in general, every site. I have seen people from both sides of every argument rush to the defense, and in many cases offense, of their argument. In general, I have seen more separation in this community over the past 48 hours then I have seen in months, maybe longer. Egos have clashed, emotions have raged, and the leaders of the websites in our community have been openly attacked for various reasons. There is no way anyone in this community who reads these boards has gone unaffected by this, I know that for a fact.

I haven't been very vocal the past few months, but my support and love for this community have continued to grow every second. With this in mind, you can imagine how an event like this which is tearing our community apart affects me. I'm never one to jump to a conclusion or pick a side; I always look at an overview of a problem and work to find a solution. After holding off on commenting on any thread over the past few days, I felt I must step forward and do everything in my power to pull things back together.

In any community, or even just any group of people, there are always going to be conflictions between various people. That’s just the way of the world; nothing is going to keep problems from occurring like this every now and again. However, what can be done is to work in a resolute way in order to solve the problems instead of making them worse. Arguing your side of the problem won't help anything, I think we've all seen this over the past few days. The only way to really solve any problem is to drop your ego & pride for a few minutes and look at the other side of the argument in order to really understand where the other person is coming from. Many times just by taking a clear look at the other side's feelings on the issue you can come to a resolution. Other times the best way to get past a problem or confliction is just to be the mature one and drop the argument. If you can gather the strength to say “you know what, let us forget about who is right or wrong here, let’s just move on for the good of the community”, you will be able to overcome many disagreements. Sure, you won't win any arguments, but you'll gain more respect by handling your problems in this fashion.

Those who I respect most are the ones who constantly prove themselves to be level-headed, and I honestly believe that those running any site in our great community will not get very far without this skill. This also applies to any member of the community, as you will clearly make a better image of yourself in people's mind by always being diplomatic. All of this said, I urge everyone to look past the arguments at hand, and work to find a solution for them rather then continuing to argue. As I said earlier, sometimes the best way to solve things is to really understand the other person's side rather then trying to play offense. Always remember, even though you might not agree with what the other person has to say, they always have reasoning in their head for getting mad. The trick is, figure out why, and help them solve the problem.

I truly hope that over the next 48 hours things will begin to turn around and everyone involved will begin to regain respect from those they had differences with. I honestly believe everyone in this community is a good person, and I think we can work together to heal the community. Our community needs to continue to grow and get stronger, and in order to do that, we really need everyone's support. Please, let us work together to make this happen. Thank you very much.

Sincerely,
David Gorman
Comments (Page 1)
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on Oct 23, 2001
I agree 100% with all going on not being a good thing, Being right in the center of it all..Im finding out who my true "Friends" are. Without saying names...I know know i have no friends at deviantart, And no friends here.

545 Was planned to come back. But ive changed my mind, 545 Will not return anytime soon..and most likley never at all.
on Oct 23, 2001
I'll just plod along....quietly moderating and spell-checking....through thick and thin....
on Oct 23, 2001
jier, oki, the "community" may not be all that "together" right now - but then, it's -always- been fractured. Nothing new here.

The sites have never been the glue which holds us together - witness the custo/skinz wars of yesteryear, the skinz/deskmod wars... DA was basically the first to try & get along w/ everyone (giving gorman credit: he always seemed a bit mortified by the "wars" some of the DM admins would take part in).

The glue has been, weirdly enough, the apps - make something good, and people will rally around it in whatever fashion is appropriate to them, be it irc, or a site messageboard..

If there were no new apps, and no updates to old apps, I feel that the community would be gone in a year.

So jier: you're needed... and dammit, even if there was some bile involved, your mission was a good one - I always had a special little thrill when I could report news on a new app which was freeware.

get to work, bum. this is where you bring -back- the people, not drive 'em away...
on Oct 23, 2001
I also agree with Gorman 100%

and now shog, 110%

jier, you are needed. 545 is needed. developers make the stuff so we can make our stuff. Without the developers were just drawing. Thanks guys
on Oct 23, 2001
Excellent post shoggot, points very well put.

-gorman
on Oct 23, 2001
Snowman agrees 100% with whats posted ^^^

Support The Community - don't attack it!
on Oct 23, 2001
I agree too. But I also don't think the community should take the easy path of playing moral equivalence. Evil wins when only a few good people stand by and do nothing.

The dissent we see isn't a case of one side did somethings and the other side did some things. The jier/l0c combo, aka 545 is the direct cause of the current problems. They are the ones who flamed Brad up and down DA. They are the ones who created the 545 vs Stardock thread. They are the ones who created the "Brad Wardell is a Nazi" thread.

Strife will end when the people who cause it cease.
on Oct 23, 2001
My thoughts exactly Tandis. When the terrorists attacked the NYTC there were a number of people who wanted to play the moral equality path like we Americans somehow deserved what happened. This is a case of one group being bad and another group being blameless. Brad has done nothing to deserve the pasting he received by l0c on this very message board.
Nice people don't create post topics that personally attack others. Until somebody can point to a skin site topic created by Brad that defames an individual this is a case of there being some bad apples in our ranks.
I agree with Mr. Gorman's sentiments but not at the expense of placing blame equally.
on Oct 23, 2001
I'm just talking about little arguments like "XP can be skinned without a 3rd party app, no it can't, yes it can", nothing major. Arguments like that should just be dropped, not argued over a thread of 100 posts.

-gorman
on Oct 23, 2001
tandis...

i've looked further into things... and it seems brad may have been obligated to take down l0c's post. jier was, in fact, wrong about what he assumed to be brad's initial assertion. but.

that doesn't make the core of their argument - or assertation of their philosophy - incorrect. SD - and via association, WC (actually, not even just by association - when Brad first proposed the idea, he said it would be completely hands-off by SD, if we wanted, we could hype competing products all over the place - that seems to have changed a tad from the original vision, ne?) are both, at their core, commercial entities.

As seinfeld would say: "Not that there's anything wrong with that". Of course, implied in that statement (which shares much in common w/ "many of mybest friends are jewish/black/hispanic") is a shuddering fear of homosexuality (in the seinfeld context, of course - ie, jerry would say that after protesting his heterosexuality loudly).

IE, I, and apparently some others, have a bias about software - that freeware (WB is free, I know; but crippled. It's basically an advertising springboard for the full product (this may be incorrect, haven't downloaded WB recently)) is somehow "better", or if not better in terms of coding, at least somehow morally superior.

And that seems to be where the tension stems from. Not a personal hatred by jier of brad... but a difference of philosophy which found an outlet to be expressed.

IE, this was an excuse.

Your asking l0c & jier to leave the scene/community/site I consider despicable - I've done my share of flaming folks, but I've never asked productive people - no matter how much I might dislike them personally - to leave. They may get better.

And even if you don't like 'em, or consider 'em troublemakers - they're software developers. -skinnable- software developers. That alone should make you want to hold them close to heart.
on Oct 23, 2001
That is interesting Jier. 545 will never come back and of course Stardock's evil Brad Wardell is the cause. What do you want? Are you hoping that I will beg you to stay? Too obvious, Jier. I am much too smart to fall into that childish trap.
on Oct 23, 2001
(actually, not even just by association - when Brad first proposed the idea, he said it would be completely hands-off by SD, if we wanted, we could hype competing products all over the place
by JourneyMan shoggot - 10/23/2001 12:50:44 PM

Doreen wonders & hopes if that opportunity came back at you Shog would you grab the reins and take the job to admin Wincusto???
(though I pretty sure the answer would be no, finding out first hand admin'ing is no picnic)
just wishful thinking... =/
on Oct 23, 2001
indeed; no. I understand the grief the admins have to deal with - which is part of why, despite my sympathies for l0c / jier, I can't fault frogboy either. And personally, I'll pass on having that grief again.

"saner heads will prevail" - I'm conceited enough to claim to sannity, although saner than others - maybe not. But anyway, I've been talking w/ jier.

Mostly, he wants this to be over. He's not interested in continuing the antagonism (I, on the other hand, seem to be a glutton for it, ah well; shoggot hidoi!) - and, (pride! for me! ego-boost!), after reading my post about devs -being- the community, he messaged me on irc w/, paraphrased because my memory is not perfect, "dammit shog, you just took away all reasons i had for stopping 545". So apparently, 545's stance right now is that, much like Celine Dion (dear god, i'm -so- sorry for that comparison) 545 will go on. Or at least, when the website gets recoded - although, I'm gonna nag him to put up a plain-text page w/ links to the apps in the meantime.

I see that as a good thing here - maybe the only good thing.

on Oct 23, 2001
Well when the avenues of communication are closed to us in this community what's the point. 90% of the people I cared about are gone. And the 10% that's left is only .00001 percent of the community. So tell me again, what's the point of developing anything for this "community"?
on Oct 23, 2001
being a newcomer to this world, a lot of the history is unknown to me, so some of the origins of these (apparently) long running "disputes" are unknown to me.

however, i have spent many years watching people as a species, so what i see is somewhat familiar.

personally i feel that being cast adrift from a comunity is a deeply unpleasent experience, so i would like to think that people can come to see that while they have differences, they also have significant amounts of common ground.

what ever happen to the fabled human capacity for understanding and tollerance? cannot people agree to disagree on philosophical issues without trying to tear each other to shreads? cannot people understand that they are doing others and themselves more harm than good with this?

feline *sigh* / *sob*
feline a lost soul in search of a calm harbor and good company fears for the fallout of this storm
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