Published on January 10, 2002 By gorman In WinCustomize Talk
Stardock's new product "WinStyles" has recently come to my attention, and I have some major fundamental problems with it. I am posting this in a public forum so that everyone's thoughts and ideas on this are in one centralized location. To sum up my feelings, before I go into detail, let me put it like this: WinStyles acts as a vending machine for all of your work.

That sounds harsh, I know. However, think about that for a moment, and I believe you will get my point. By simply creating a pack of skins for download, each individual author loses nearly all credit for their work, and they'll lose a good portion of the comments and feedback they might receive due to their skin simply being packaged with 10 others. Their skin is simply part of a group now, and all individuality of it is lost. The user sees the work, uses it, but it all ends here. Thus, WinStyles is a virtual vending machine for skins. This is a big, big problem.

This program hurts everyone, including you. It hurts the artists by eliminating individual feedback from the people who download their work, and as a result stunting their growth as an artist. Many artists are greatly dependent on comments to improve their work, and this is a key point of most skin sites; without these comments, the community will come to a basic stand still. It also hurts the artist by removing the majority of recognition. By looking for skins individually you see the person's name, can easily view their profile and see other skins they have uploaded, and get a much more personal feel of things. Granted the author has to give permission for their work to be in a WinStyles suite, it still does not resolve any of the above issues.

It hurts the skin sites (such as WinCustomize and DeskMod) by reducing the overall interaction, not to mention the page views. Comments will go down, downloads will drop on everything besides the WinStyle suites, and the whole point of the site will slowly crumble. Although something of this catastrophic level is not likely, this program certainly enables the possibility. The whole sense of community greatly deteriorates, and that really will hurt the sites.

In addition to all of that, you are also hurt. No longer are you able to easily view other work by the artists because you do not go directly to the page with their upload. You do not have the opportunity to make contact with the artists, leave your opinions, or further contribute to the community. This really hurts the overall experience of going to a skin site, and being part of the community. Those reading this certainly know that.

Last, but definitely not least, this hurts application developers. All of a sudden, their program loses its identity. No longer do you have to change the skin through the application itself, now you simply use a Stardock program to change it all. Imagine how many people will think to themselves "I made my desktop look pretty with WinStyles", this removes lots of appreciation for the individual applications. This is very similar to the appreciation for the artist that I talked about previously. Although this is probably one of the smaller implications of this type of a program, it is certainly not one to ignore.

Overall, I can understand why Stardock would think this is a good idea, but I personally feel the negatives outweigh the positives. It makes things easy, but it causes many problems while doing so. Granted this is a great way for Stardock to increase awareness of their brand, in return it does the exact opposite for applications that it skins. If this program really gets big, it will ultimately ruin the community.

Thank you,
David Gorman
DeskMod
Comments (Page 4)
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on Jan 10, 2002
Ain't life fun?....

Thinking of LiteSTEP though, no-one can yet agree on how it should be set up or packaged as it is, without worrying about inclusion in something like Winstyles.
Find 5 'STEP themes, and you'll probably have 5 different configurations/folders/modules/etc., and one hell of a time making a 'plugin' to handle them all....
on Jan 10, 2002
this is like attending my daughter's schoolboard meetings. this mb needs a killfile so that we don't have to read the 'stardock is evil' horsesh*t from the hysterical anticommercialists. winstyles..winstyles..eh? hmm. mountain from a molehill. i've been using it since it was called convergence. it ain't gonna take over.

here's why:
it is a great program. don't get me wrong. but it is a lot of work to put together one of these suites. for kicks i made one today. it takes quite a few minutes to do because ya gotta find the url, type in the url for each program. then ya gotta test it and make sure you didn't make a typo. for the original authors it's great. but i think brad's vision of people putting screenshots up and including a suite file with it ain't gonna happen unless they can make it a lot easier. otherwise it'll just be used how people like me already use it, as a way of saving desktop settings adn switching between them. not for distributing desktops.

on Jan 10, 2002
Thanks for your comments, Jay.

The only way to make it easier would be to use an earlier design in which instead of typing in actual URLs, you picked from a list of things from WinCustomize. But if we did that, then ONLY apps supported by WinCustomize and ONLY skins on it would be able to be selected and that could alienate the skin sites. Remember, Stardock wants to HELP the skin sites, not take away traffic from them.

But yea, it took more time than I had expected to make that Beige .SUITE today because of all the URL lookups I had to do.

I'm not sure what the right direction is then on that.

If we have it hooked into WInCustomize, that might upset the other skin sites and give more ammo to the "Stardock is the devil" people (though admittedly at this point they've kind of spent their clout).

On the other hand, if we keep it open where youc an use anything, it could be used to basically steal bandwidth from other sites.

And if we got rid of .SUITE's it would be a long term blow to customization in general since screenshots are how a lot of people learn about this stuff in the first place "Holy cow your desktop is cool! How did you do that?" Answer: Download WinStyles and from there they find out about the various programs involved and can seamlessly manage this stuff. I think many people forget how confusing all this stuff is to a new user.

Any suggestions?
on Jan 11, 2002
I'm all for keeping it the .SUITE format, and it'd be nice if it became a standard. I certainly suffered a lot during my "aqua phase" trying to find exactly the right components to mimic some screenshot I saw at aqua-soft

I don't think it's VITAL per se, but if it's allowed to thrive, it could be a big step in the evolution and would help push skinning to the mainstream. One way to accomplish this would be:

- Joe Blow has a plain-vanilla Windows box. He has changed the color scheme, but he's afraid to try more.

- A friend talks himinto installing WinStyles.

- WinStyles TELLS Joe the programs it supports, scans his system, and lets him know that it can download and install the programs he lacks. Doing this would require Joe to visit the site hosting the app, so the developer/skin host gets a page view, and has the chance to make Joe aware of its existence.

- Joe becomes quite knowledgeable on the subject of system customization, tells his friends...

We ALL benefit, not just Stardock.
on Jan 11, 2002
FIrestorm: " Other than that, as callous as it sounds, sometimes I don't even remember who's done what skin. "

Yes that was the impression you gave me but I did agree with and said the same as you about the "newbee" peace here lol........

I really like the idea (WinStyles) myself of a one/click and changes all skins involved
I have one suggestion, because I'm also not comfortable with "authors" skins being mixed up in a Winstyles theme and then counting on that person contacting each author before he/she uploads it, why does it have to be an upload for others to download all skins involved in his/her screen shot? Why not just the usual screengrab or just adding the links to all skins involved instead of a download of skins they did NOT create but rather a mixed breed of skins.......

But I'm also upset that certain programs like (yahoo msngr) are NOT included that have been skinned by wblinds for the past year and no longer are, that's not fair either!
So please don't skin me for my opinion
on Jan 11, 2002
Wow, that was a long thread to read to get to the bottom. All in one day.

Anyhoo, my take on the whole WinStyles thing is this: (and it was mentioned by someone else waaaaayyyy up near the top but I can't remember who) I'll probably use it to set up various themes on my computer that work well together that I like. That way I can switch between them rapidly. Will I ever upload any of these? Nope. For a couple reasons: 1) They're mine 2) I usually end up modify aspects of different skins from the original author just to tweak it that little bit more to my liking (eg. different font for WB title bars).

I also agree with whoever it was that gave the example of "Joe" (just checked - it was Firestorm). It would be ideal for someone who didn't want the plain vanilla (or blue/green of XP ) WinBox.

The other target I see for this is the authors such as Alexandrie, Treetog, whoever else I'm forgetting that makes massive suites. This IS the perfect way to distribute them. (Sure, there's going to be some skins that won't be included but I'm hoping that it'll be possible to perhaps include some type of note inside the .xptheme or .suite file that explains about the extra skins available and where to obtain them - maybe even with a screenshot?? - If this isn't possible as of yet, I think it may be worth considering adding)

Now, from that last statement it probably makes it obvious that I haven't yet played around with WinStyles yet. Honestly I've just been too busy to sit down and figure out what skins I want in what packages I've been using the same DX/WB setup for the past couple months now and I love it so I haven't had the urge to change right now (FTR, I'm using a modified Alpha by nu-tea along with LiquidHF by Frogboy). As soon as I get a few hours to sit down and play around I'll be sure to start exploring all the various features.

Which actually brings me to another problem I have: Stardock keeps making programs faster than I can play with them
on Jan 11, 2002
hehe, I feel that way sometimes, Robb... I've been on the OD network for half a year now and still haven't thoroughly explored all the goodies in it. Oh well, just one more reason to renew my sub when it runs out
on Jan 11, 2002
craeonics likes cultish dark arts
on Jan 11, 2002
ChiChi - Moderators of sites like this one will strive to make sure that .xpthemes uploaded are all created by the original author. It's no different than a wallpaper. Sometimesp eople upload wallpapers they didn't make.

Your second suggestion, screenshot with links, that's all a .SUITE file is. When you download a .SUITE, it is basically just a bunch of links that WinStyles uses to download and apply those skins.
on Jan 11, 2002
JayG,

Use copy and paste

For moderating, maybe its best to limit the upload of xpthemes and suites to the original authors, and not to someone, that picks a bunch of skins and then puts them online on a skinsite. Or was that the general idea ?
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