Published on January 10, 2002 By gorman In WinCustomize Talk
Stardock's new product "WinStyles" has recently come to my attention, and I have some major fundamental problems with it. I am posting this in a public forum so that everyone's thoughts and ideas on this are in one centralized location. To sum up my feelings, before I go into detail, let me put it like this: WinStyles acts as a vending machine for all of your work.

That sounds harsh, I know. However, think about that for a moment, and I believe you will get my point. By simply creating a pack of skins for download, each individual author loses nearly all credit for their work, and they'll lose a good portion of the comments and feedback they might receive due to their skin simply being packaged with 10 others. Their skin is simply part of a group now, and all individuality of it is lost. The user sees the work, uses it, but it all ends here. Thus, WinStyles is a virtual vending machine for skins. This is a big, big problem.

This program hurts everyone, including you. It hurts the artists by eliminating individual feedback from the people who download their work, and as a result stunting their growth as an artist. Many artists are greatly dependent on comments to improve their work, and this is a key point of most skin sites; without these comments, the community will come to a basic stand still. It also hurts the artist by removing the majority of recognition. By looking for skins individually you see the person's name, can easily view their profile and see other skins they have uploaded, and get a much more personal feel of things. Granted the author has to give permission for their work to be in a WinStyles suite, it still does not resolve any of the above issues.

It hurts the skin sites (such as WinCustomize and DeskMod) by reducing the overall interaction, not to mention the page views. Comments will go down, downloads will drop on everything besides the WinStyle suites, and the whole point of the site will slowly crumble. Although something of this catastrophic level is not likely, this program certainly enables the possibility. The whole sense of community greatly deteriorates, and that really will hurt the sites.

In addition to all of that, you are also hurt. No longer are you able to easily view other work by the artists because you do not go directly to the page with their upload. You do not have the opportunity to make contact with the artists, leave your opinions, or further contribute to the community. This really hurts the overall experience of going to a skin site, and being part of the community. Those reading this certainly know that.

Last, but definitely not least, this hurts application developers. All of a sudden, their program loses its identity. No longer do you have to change the skin through the application itself, now you simply use a Stardock program to change it all. Imagine how many people will think to themselves "I made my desktop look pretty with WinStyles", this removes lots of appreciation for the individual applications. This is very similar to the appreciation for the artist that I talked about previously. Although this is probably one of the smaller implications of this type of a program, it is certainly not one to ignore.

Overall, I can understand why Stardock would think this is a good idea, but I personally feel the negatives outweigh the positives. It makes things easy, but it causes many problems while doing so. Granted this is a great way for Stardock to increase awareness of their brand, in return it does the exact opposite for applications that it skins. If this program really gets big, it will ultimately ruin the community.

Thank you,
David Gorman
DeskMod
Comments (Page 2)
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on Jan 10, 2002
Let's make sure we put a few items on the table that are key to remember:

Stardock != Microsoft. That means that changes in WinStyles and how it works are on the table. So if users or website admins or skin authors object to certain ways it works, we can alter it.

Let's break down the major issues at hand:

(1) WinStyles takes away from skin author credit.

Response:
https://www.stardock.com/temp/ws.jpg

You can't even create a .suite file without including credit for who did what. There are two formats that WinStyles supports - .xptheme and .suite. .XPTheme should be pretty straight forward good for users and skin authors. No respecting skin site is going to accept .xpthemes that contain rips. Just as they won't tolerate rips of wallpapers and skins. This is no different. A .xptheme is just a ZIP file renamed that contains teh various app skins.

.SUITE can be a bit scarier though and it's open for discussion. A .SUITE is less than 1K in size. It is, in effect, a portable skin site. When you apply a .SUITE file, it goes out and downloads the skins from the place the .SUITE maker tells it to and WinStyles then grabs them and applies them. I uploaded the Beige .SUITE file here today for instance even though I created none of the skins. My submission doesn't include any skins or themes, it just points to the URL where users can get them (no different than a screenshot that manually states where you can get them except that a .SUITE file requires the user to list who made each part).

2) WinStyles hurts skin sites.
Response: THIS I have to agree with to an extent. .XPThemes don't hurt skin sites. But .SUITEs could because the site doesn't get a page view. However, the download count on components IS increased of the individual components on .suites.

What can we do about this? We could require that they only use WInCustomize. But then the "Stardock is the devil" crowd will say we're trying to lock people into WinCustomize which was the reason we made it so that any URL could be used (we had thought about tying it directly to our skin database to make it even easier to use but that would have required it to tie only to Stardock's database).

We're open to suggestions. However, this sort of thing happens already. The popular shell program, Talisman has no actual skin library of its own. It links purely to other people's skin sites (that's why Talisman skins are alwas highly ranked on skinz.org - Lightek links to them from their site). ICQPlus is doing the same thing to Deskmod as I type this. WinStyles .suites are the same sort of thing.

3) About not appreciating the applications.

Response: This I just totally disagree with. I would say it's just the opposite because each application is very highlighted in it and it increases awareness of these applications. The user does, afterall, have to go out and download these programs to use them.

We originally were ONLY going to support Stardock apps but once again we knew that the "Stardock is the devil" crowd would accuse us of trying to lock users into Stardock software so we put in the effort to support third party applications as well (including quite a bit of work to support Hoverdesk).

I would argue that WinStyles is the best thing to happen for skinnable application developers. If they maek a good app, now they get exposure by being able to leverage the strength of better known skinnable programs. Example: If Hoverdesk is felt to be better than say ObjectBar, then people will use WInStyles to include Hoverdesk themes with their WindowBlinds skin and Icon package. That will in turn get a lot of new users interested in Hoverdesk (which is one reason why we wanted to only support Stardock apps in the first place but we're trying to be fair here).

4) Decreases author interaction with users.

Response: Disagree again here. This could actually be increased. If we were somehow to switch it to be a WinCustomize only file solution, then we could let people comment on components directly from the program. But again, this would get a different group upset.

Another solution might be for the suite creator to be required to put a link to the comments field. For instance, on Beige, I could just add:
https://www.wincustomize.com/comments.asp?SkinID=2158&Lib=1

Or this could just be optional.

5) In General - good or bad:

Response:
Most of you knwo I'm a statistics nut. But it is with good reason. We all tend to forget how big the "community" is. It's not 60 guys on #skinnerz anymore. On WinCustomize alone there are 40,000 people who visit this site nearly every day. There are something like 10,000 peole who visit this site more than 3 times per day. I suspect the stats at DeviantART and Deskmod aren't much different.

It's for those people that we want to serve too. When I upload a screenshot of my desktop, I want to be able to say "You like this? Here's a 1K file you can apply and you can have the same desktop. Isn't skinnign cool? Wouldn't you like to make some skins? Wouldn't you like to try out more apps?" WinStyles makes customization much more accessible to those 40,000 people who visit daily let alone the other 700,000 who visit at least 1 time per month.



on Jan 10, 2002
I don't know what to think of this...
I understand that it's cool to be able to have suites with skins, but I am still hesitating. I like to know when/if people include my stuff in a suite. Even if my skins isn't REALLY physically in the suite file.
And the comment bit also bothers me. I strive for comments (call me insecure if you will, hehehe!). Maybe you should add the email address of the original skinner a compulsery field, so that when people apply a suite they can with one click send an email to the skin authors?
Dunno. Just random thoughts.
on Jan 10, 2002
I do like the idea of having a link to a comments field for the original skin. That might actually INCREASE greatly the number of comments.
on Jan 10, 2002
I agree, paxx. I'd also like to know when people are including my stuff in a suite. I'd prefer they not include anything without asking first. Another one of the issues I have is that they might be including links to old or outdated versions of themes when newer ones are available elsewhere.
on Jan 10, 2002
frog: I'll drop my anti-SD stance forever if this is open sourced, so individual app devs can add their own apps to the spec, and they get folded in. Otherwise, it's a case of one company holding the strings.

I currently consider stardock to be, at its core, pretense on the surface set aside, to be evil. This could prove me wrong, if done properly.
on Jan 10, 2002
(to be properly open-sourced, a non-app dev would have to be maintainer, I think - gorman, jark, or someone they could agree on recommending, would be a good place to start).
on Jan 10, 2002
Spare me your melodrama.
on Jan 10, 2002
fair enough - I'll take that as a "we like control", IE, no. nice community support, eloquent response to this supporting app devs
on Jan 10, 2002
More like a rejection of elitism.

A rejection of "We just spent a year writing this but let's go open source it to make some self-important guy agree that we're not 'evil' even though he has no reason to think we're 'evil' in the first place."

During development, many times, we thought how ironic that a program like WinStyles wasn't done by a certain numerically named team of holier-than-thou coders since it was well within their ability.

I measure people by their deeds, not not warm fuzzy words. WinStyles, today, right now, supports virtually every even remotely popular program out there that's skinnable. It doesn't just support Stardock stuff, it supports things ranging from NeXTSTart to Hoverdesk to Beatnik.

It's easy for a guy who never has to actually put forth WORK behind it words to demand others give up their work.

Stardock isn't "evil" but it IS a business. And I don't consider you to represent any sort of "community" that I would want to be apart at this point.

The "community" I think of isn't made up principally of roughly a dozen self-appointed guys who rarely make skins, barely write code, and when they deem to grace everyone else with their presence tend to sit there and put down what other people do calling them "evil" (the term "Evil" bandied about people who write eye candy software is ridiculous to begin with) or "Nazis" or whatever.

If you actually wrote real code, you might have an understanding why your demand that we just hand over a project we've been working on over a year to other people for no other reason other than satisfy your holier than thou attitude is not likely to have much support with us.

Like I implied earlier, go get your buddies at 545 or whatever to write one of these and release it as open source. It's well within their ability. Or write it yourself and give it away.
on Jan 10, 2002
shoggot says:
"fair enough - I'll take that as a "we like control", IE, no. nice community support, eloquent response to this supporting app devs"

Pot to kettle. Pot to kettle.

For a guy who just got done calling people "evil".....
on Jan 10, 2002
point is, although it supports a few n on-SD apps, it doesn't support -anything- - just what you give it support for. Open-sourcing it would aleviate that problem, take some of the pressure off of you to add support for such (apparently unpopular, or they'd be supported?) apps as litestep...

By all means, don't do it for me - I'm not the developer of an app you've snubbed. Try doing it out of the goodness of your heart. You ascribe to having some of that, I've heard.

From what I see, the only financial boost this can give you is via reputation - so open sourcing it could only improve that aspect.

As for 34i, yes, they aren't doing this. They are, quite honestly, every bit as money-grubbing as you are. And I have no problem with that (with them, or with you - for that). They also aren't trying to get complete control of skinning, and turn it into a saleable product. That's what I see SD doing, currently.

If you honestly believe that this is a good thing for the community, make it a community project. If you don't, I guess your only option is to keep dismissing the issue

Pot, kettle, whatever... this is the3 bed you've made, cake you've baked, you're sizing the shoe for fitness. Let's see what you make of it.

Personally, I'm guessing it'll end up as ammunition.
on Jan 10, 2002
Shoggot's meglomania aside, let's be constructive. WinStyles is a reality.

If SD didn't make it, someone else would have. Skinning is very popular. People want easy ways to skin their computers. So what features should be added to WinStyles to address the concerns raised?
on Jan 10, 2002
Make it possible for developers of non-stardock apps to add support.

Not having support for popular apps which directly compete with SD apps (such as litestep, for starters - there's likely over 200 apps which aren't supported) gives it the look of a corporate tool, thus providing ammo for trolling megalomaniacs...
on Jan 10, 2002
Shoggot: I wasn't referring to 34i. Mian and Toasty are high on my list of great developers who match words with deeds.

You'll have to forgive me if I don't accept your definition of what support is.

Desktop customization is not some holy thing. It's software that allows you to do neat things on your computer. That's why it is, in my view, very melodramatic for you to ascribe terms like "evil" to it. I mean really, get a life.

The problem is that you and I don't serve the same "communities". The fact WinStyles exists helps hundreds of thousands of people who are just getting into skinning.

Why not get your buddies l0c and Jier to write one of these things. They were the ones I was referring to.

Then when they're done, have them hand it over to a Gorman or Jark or whomever.

Shoggot, to me, you just represent the typical "nothing is impossible for the person who doesn't have to do it" type. This whole "taking over skinning" is frankly, just bizarre.

Nothing stopped people from writing their own DesktopX or WindowBlinds or WInStyles or LogonStudio or CursorXP or whatever. They simply didn't do it. You would have people believe that there were all these great programs and then Stardock came around and crowded them all out. The reality is that users would simply have even fewer options.

The purpose of WinStyles is to lift the tied of all boats. If we can come up with an open plugin standard, we will (and we have been saying that for SIX MONTHS if you had bothered to keep up on what's going on).

WinStyles lowers the barrier to entry for new users to get into customization by providing a standard interface and streamlining how one controls their various customization programs.

The good points brought up by Dave Gorman wouldn't even exist if Stardock were "evil" because WinStyles would be totally tied into WinCustomize and only work on Stardock apps which would eliminate most of his concerns. But because we're trying to be nice, and support non-Stardock apps and have .SUITEs support all websites it makes things a little more complicated. Hopefully we can have the best of both worlds, where Dave's concerns are met without having to tighten up what it supports.
on Jan 10, 2002
Christ what a drama. It seems to me that some people just want Skinning to be a 'cultish' dark art that only a few geeky people have access to.

Until a couple of years ago I didn't know what skinning was. I found that VDE and then DesktopX offered me something I loved and could get into.

Why anything that makes getting your desktop to look great easier should be slated is beyond me. Why not make it easier for Joe Public.

This appliction is not even at 1.0 yet and Stardock are open to suggestions so lets just be constructive and give it a chance without using it as a weapon in our own private agendas!
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